Vic Alexander Translation Error? 2 Corinthians 12:2's "Struggle Here Until Heaven's Revenge"
Victor N. Alexander knows the Aramaic language. That is something that CANNOT be said for many of the Bible's translators. Even those who do know the Aramaic language disagree at times with Vic's idiomatic phrasing of what the original authors of Scriptures meant by what they said. Here is a sample critiquing dialogue from http://www.peshitta.org/for/showthread.php?tid=3062
Says one:
"Victor Alexander's New Testament is a mixture of amazingly good and amazingly bad. A case in point would be Romans 1:26 where from Greek-to-English you would have 'left to degraded passions.' But fortunately Victor Alexander sees through the smoke and translates 'abandoned them to venereal diseases.' The Aramaic phrase in question is 'Kaba d'Tsera' where 'kaba' has the primary meaning of 'medical condition' with dictionary synonyms such as disease, sickness, malady, infirmity, etc. The remainder of the phrase, 'd'Tsera' means 'of disgrace' or 'of shame.' Since the passage in question is hitting the topic of homosexuality head on, 'disgraceful diseases' would quite naturally be translated (or paraphrased) in modern English vernacular as 'venereal diseases.' So in this instance, Victor Alexander hits a home run with the bases loaded. :-) However.....there's the down side...and I wish I could remember the passage of Scripture where he incorporates the phrase 'heaven's revenge' because it was a horrible translation mistake based on a mistaken, hurried reading of a word root."
Says the other:
"Oops! It looks like you have addressed the issue of Vic using 'struggle' and 'revenge' when there seems to be no basis for doing so. I have access to Payne-Smith's Compendious, Jennings' Syriac Dictionary, and I look into the Comprehensive Aramaic Lexicon periodically but still don't see any recourse for this rendering of Vic's. Your input on YouTube and Amazon is quite inspiring. 2nd Corinthians 12:2 is not translated this way in any of the other Aramaic-to-English versions" (bold emphases mine).
Here is the translation in question and subsequent note:
2 Corinthians 12
2. I knew a man through Christ for fourteen years, (whether through the flesh, however, or not, I do not know, God only knows,) that he would struggle here until heaven's revenge (emphasis mine).
3. And I knew this man, however whether through the flesh or not, only God knows,
4. He was taken up to paradise and he heard words that cannot be spoken of, those that are not permissible for a human being to utter.*
5. Regarding him I am proud; regarding myself, however, I am not proud, except for my afflictions.
*12:4 Reference to John the Apostle and Revelation.
Notice in the first comment above, "Victor Alexander sees through the smoke." That is the thing with his translation; it is not rigidly literal. Vic apparently believed that here Paul was referring to John the Apostle, of whom it was said, "If it pleases me to hold this one until I come, what is that to you?" (John 21:22 Alexander). This would explain Vic's use of 'struggle' and 'revenge.'
IF VICTOR IS CORRECT, IT OPENS A WHOLE OTHER CAN OF WORMS REGARDING WHEN JOHN ACTUALLY RECEIVED THE REVELATION, how many times he received revelation, and/or when 2 Corinthians was actually written. I suspect that if John received his revelation early in his ministry, "whether through the flesh, however, or not, I do not know, God only knows," was a trademark expression of his preaching by which the Corinthians would know exactly whom Paul was referring to. THE POINT OF THE PASSAGE IS PAUL WAS PROUD TO KNOW JOHN; HIMSELF ... NOT SO MUCH.
Notice also these Aramaic language "experts" are working through dictionaries, lexicons, and other Aramaic-to-English versions. There is nothing wrong with that -- I have a shelf full of them (alas, Greek and Hebrew). Alexander, though, says that the dictionaries are not adequate, that in many cases they are wrong. I know that sounds loopy, but consider: the people who wrote the dictionaries ASSIGNED their definitions to the words. E.g., a certain "language expert" knows that the Old and New Testaments are books. Writing his or her dictionary, he defines 'testament' as a book. Uh . . . yeah NO. Knowing better, that a testament is a covenant, do you translate 'testament' from your dictionary as a book, or as a covenant? Alexander sees through the smoke and translates what the authors were actually saying.
Vic's use of 'struggle' and 'revenge' isn't really an insurmountable problem, is it?
Says one:
"Victor Alexander's New Testament is a mixture of amazingly good and amazingly bad. A case in point would be Romans 1:26 where from Greek-to-English you would have 'left to degraded passions.' But fortunately Victor Alexander sees through the smoke and translates 'abandoned them to venereal diseases.' The Aramaic phrase in question is 'Kaba d'Tsera' where 'kaba' has the primary meaning of 'medical condition' with dictionary synonyms such as disease, sickness, malady, infirmity, etc. The remainder of the phrase, 'd'Tsera' means 'of disgrace' or 'of shame.' Since the passage in question is hitting the topic of homosexuality head on, 'disgraceful diseases' would quite naturally be translated (or paraphrased) in modern English vernacular as 'venereal diseases.' So in this instance, Victor Alexander hits a home run with the bases loaded. :-) However.....there's the down side...and I wish I could remember the passage of Scripture where he incorporates the phrase 'heaven's revenge' because it was a horrible translation mistake based on a mistaken, hurried reading of a word root."
Says the other:
"Oops! It looks like you have addressed the issue of Vic using 'struggle' and 'revenge' when there seems to be no basis for doing so. I have access to Payne-Smith's Compendious, Jennings' Syriac Dictionary, and I look into the Comprehensive Aramaic Lexicon periodically but still don't see any recourse for this rendering of Vic's. Your input on YouTube and Amazon is quite inspiring. 2nd Corinthians 12:2 is not translated this way in any of the other Aramaic-to-English versions" (bold emphases mine).
Here is the translation in question and subsequent note:
2 Corinthians 12
2. I knew a man through Christ for fourteen years, (whether through the flesh, however, or not, I do not know, God only knows,) that he would struggle here until heaven's revenge (emphasis mine).
3. And I knew this man, however whether through the flesh or not, only God knows,
4. He was taken up to paradise and he heard words that cannot be spoken of, those that are not permissible for a human being to utter.*
5. Regarding him I am proud; regarding myself, however, I am not proud, except for my afflictions.
*12:4 Reference to John the Apostle and Revelation.
Notice in the first comment above, "Victor Alexander sees through the smoke." That is the thing with his translation; it is not rigidly literal. Vic apparently believed that here Paul was referring to John the Apostle, of whom it was said, "If it pleases me to hold this one until I come, what is that to you?" (John 21:22 Alexander). This would explain Vic's use of 'struggle' and 'revenge.'
IF VICTOR IS CORRECT, IT OPENS A WHOLE OTHER CAN OF WORMS REGARDING WHEN JOHN ACTUALLY RECEIVED THE REVELATION, how many times he received revelation, and/or when 2 Corinthians was actually written. I suspect that if John received his revelation early in his ministry, "whether through the flesh, however, or not, I do not know, God only knows," was a trademark expression of his preaching by which the Corinthians would know exactly whom Paul was referring to. THE POINT OF THE PASSAGE IS PAUL WAS PROUD TO KNOW JOHN; HIMSELF ... NOT SO MUCH.
Notice also these Aramaic language "experts" are working through dictionaries, lexicons, and other Aramaic-to-English versions. There is nothing wrong with that -- I have a shelf full of them (alas, Greek and Hebrew). Alexander, though, says that the dictionaries are not adequate, that in many cases they are wrong. I know that sounds loopy, but consider: the people who wrote the dictionaries ASSIGNED their definitions to the words. E.g., a certain "language expert" knows that the Old and New Testaments are books. Writing his or her dictionary, he defines 'testament' as a book. Uh . . . yeah NO. Knowing better, that a testament is a covenant, do you translate 'testament' from your dictionary as a book, or as a covenant? Alexander sees through the smoke and translates what the authors were actually saying.
Vic's use of 'struggle' and 'revenge' isn't really an insurmountable problem, is it?
posted by Daniel C. Branham-Steele at
12:16 AM
1 Comments:
'Heaven's revenge' is better than saying that He's a jealous God. It's been a while since I stopped translating. A lot has happened since I moved away from Cabrini Villas, after living 16 years where my father lived for 22 years before I moved there. My father Nimrod was a Jewish movie mogul who was born in Turkey in 1884! His constant companion the last years of his life was Hedy Lamarr. My mother Margaret who was raised in Russia just when Lenin brought Communism to Russia never told me about Nimrod, my real father. She told me that her husband was Presbyterian and that she saw him for 40 days and that he was an Assyrian born in Urmi, Iran. As you know Lenin was Jewish and my mother was set to go to war against Hitler with Stalin's Red Army; however the family was deported from Russia and later she was married my father who the head of CIA who brought my mother to San Francisco where I was born on May 7, 1943.
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VicAlexander, at 10:46 AM
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